Heal the Toxic Codependent Cycle

[Mark] Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Mark Groves Podcast! Today is very special: this is the first time Kylie is on the podcast as my wife!

[Kylie] That’s correct!

[Mark] So Kylie, welcome back.

[Kylie] Thanks for having me. Happy to be here.

[Mark] Ky hasn't been on the podcast since right before we had Jasper. And then we got married actually shortly after that podcast.

[Kylie] Right. And actually, on that podcast, you're like, you know, something about “not needing to be married.” Like something about needing to make me an honest woman.

[Mark] Oh, yeah. I made a joke about it. And then we made her an honest woman.

[Kylie] Here we are.

[Mark] Yeah, we like to joke about that. Yeah, we were in Sedona. I had a retreat there.

And then we were like, “We should get married in Sedona. We love Sedona.” And so one of Kylie's good friends, one of my good friends too, who lives in Sedona, she's been on the podcast twice, Anahata. We're like, “Hey, are you licensed to marry people in Arizona?”

“Yeah.”

Called our best friends in Scottsdale. They drove up because we needed two witnesses. And we got married at the base of Thunder Mountain.

[Kylie] Yeah in a medicine wheel. It was really, really, really, really beautiful.

[Mark] Yeah and you know people go to that area to go to this medicine wheel, but we had hijacked it; we were getting married in the middle of it, standing in the center of this medicine wheel. But you know how people love love like right? It's just true, people do… and so when you get to witness a ceremony, especially with the blessing of like a pregnant woman… right? So it's either like... a shotgun? 

It either looks like you're like a shameful Christian bride.

[Kylie] Totally.

[Mark] You know, or you're…

[Kylie] Although we were in a medicine wheel, so...

[Mark] What do you mean?

[Kylie] Like, shameful Christian bride. I'm not sure that that would stack.

[Mark] Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Okay. I see what you're saying. Yeah. It wouldn't stack. We weren't in the right venue for that.

[Kylie] Right. Exactly.

[Mark] But people were walking by and they're kind of like wanting to go to the medicine wheel, but then seeing we're getting married in the middle of it. And they would just… we didn't invite anyone to the wedding except for random hikers. Apparently.

[Kylie] Our parents were stoked.

[Mark] Yeah. We sent pictures to our parents after my mom and dad are like, “What? You just got married?!” Yep. This is how we do things over here.

So I'm excited to have you back on.

[Kylie] Excited to be here, baby. 

[Mark] Wifey. Do you think it felt different to be a wife than to be a partner?

[Kylie] You know, it's funny. Initially, when you first started calling me that, I think I felt it. But now I'm like, I don't feel anything. I'm like, yeah, of course. Like it just kind of rolls…like it lands so good, you know what I mean?

Whereas before, I was like, “Oh yeah that's a thing that happened.” I think because we got married, like right before giving birth or right before Jasper came into the world, it kind of just felt like, “Whoa, that's a lot of big shifts in a short amount of time.” So it just, you know, takes some integration time to land into the beauty of all the new roles.

[Mark] Yeah, you know, there's that quote that I love that I've shared. I'm sure I've shared it on the podcast before, but it's by Jordan Peterson. Save your opinions of Jordan Peterson. But the quote is great, which is, “Commitment only works when you do it.”

And I really loved it because when I heard that, it was Aubrey Marcus who shared it with me, there was this recognition that like, what are we actually truly committed to? Like truly committed - that we don't create gray, that there's no “outs.” Because, you know, we sign contracts with ourselves, and then we're like, we have our own legal team that has created a small print section that no one reads, but we're the ones who wrote it for ourselves. So it's been really interesting to play with what does that mean to be committed when there is no other option?

Now granted obviously everyone has other options. Like you can cognitively understand that there are plenty of choices in the world, and I take that away.

[Kylie] Yeah, and I think, you know, to kind of elaborate on that piece here is like, when you're in a liberated loving relationship/marriage, you know, it really just becomes another step to explore sacred union, right?

Like there are reasons we did a marriage certificate, you know, outside of just wanting to get married. But it was a deepening of that commitment on every single level. And I felt like our souls were like, yeah, let's have a sacred union ceremony. Let's get really clear about what our commitment is, what our vision is, and what we're saying yes to.

[Mark] Yeah.

[Kylie] Like you said, get rid of the gray and go all in. And I really believe that Jasper, our son, was calling that in, too. He was like, yo, you guys, figure it out. Just say I do.

[Mark] You know, I gotta laugh too. There's a clip, I've shared it with you, it's funny — of Louis CK before he's married in one part of the clip, and then he's divorced — and in it, he says, “Relationships aren't hard till you get married, but really, till you have kids” And he's saying, “Because when you get married, you're like, oh, I can't leave now. But when you have a kid, you're like, I could have left”

[Kylie] Terrible.

[Mark] It is. It is. But the reason I bring that up is I conceptually didn't understand the commitment he was referencing in the humour. I found it funny, but I also didn't conceptually understand the rooted nature of a child, a shared child, and what that means and what we want to teach him.

[Kylie] Yeah, that is union forever.

[Mark] It is. It is the alchemy of the literal creation of union. Yeah and you know it's been so beautiful to be able to play with commitment with you. And I don't mean like, we're not playing with what we’re committed to, open, closed, but like, playing with what is possible for me. What is possible for you. What is possible for our community, for Jasper when there is, as best we can, always a lived desire and intention to really always be in that state of like, treating you as sacred, treating me as sacred, treating the connection we have as sacred.

I'm sure if I have any ex-girlfriends listening, they're like, “Now you treated all that sacred. Great.”

[Kylie] Thank you for preparing him.

[Mark] If you're listening and you'd like to come on and talk with me about it, we can.

[Kylie] I look forward to that.

[Mark] I'm just so excited that we get to talk together and share with you guys. You've been such a part of our journey, and if you've joined this podcast more recently, there's a whole journey where Kylie and I were together for five years?

[Kylie] Yeah, about.

[Mark] And then we broke up. And there's some good podcasts on that. We broke up around September of 2019, and so if you go back, there's one podcast episode specifically called Adulting is Hard — where it should have a sensor of warning just for the sobs that I have in it — but I shared a lot of my journey and our breakup out loud, with Ky's consent, and just what I was processing.

And we did a closing ceremony. And so that podcast episode is about our closing ceremony, on how we closed the previous container of our relationship. And then, I mean, spoiler alert, we got back together and in that time, it was nine months that we were apart, the intention was not to get back together. That was not the thought.

But the work we did both in relationship 1.0 together and then the pause — we call it now the sacred pause — which is the term that is aptly applied to the space when you get back together. You get to call it a sacred pause. And then relationship 2.0.

[Kylie] Sacred pause, aka do your damn work! Make it sacred. Make the pain of the rupture of the breakup worth it, you know?

[Mark] So often we get asked, “How did you get back together? What was it like, the space between? Did you have boundaries about contact?” And we have a new book coming out called Liberated Love, and all of that is in there. And when we get that question, the intention is “How do I get that person back?” Which I understand. I don't want to mow over the positive, beautiful desire to get back together with someone. Especially in the real intensity of the longing. However, I think that the idea of “how do we get back together” is actually the wrong idea, because the idea is, in some way you're going back - even the word means you're going backwards.

And I think when you're truly doing your work, healing, and really living intentionally through heartbreak, but even in dating, if you're so deeply ingrained in your intention, there will come a point where you actually won't care who is the person you meet in the future. You won't be concerned if it's your ex.

Because the person, if it is your ex, they're meeting you moving forward. They're meeting you on the path of your growth because they're on their path. And I think so often we get back together with people, and we have to actually go back to who we were, and we have to go back to old patterns, and we have to turn down our volume again we have to get small again, and I think we could feel that in our bodies.

[Kylie] You know, when the old patterns show up, even, you know, in a new dynamic, of course, there's layers that still need to be processed and healed through romantic relationship. You can't do it all solo. So it's like, those feelings, felt sensations of becoming small again or silencing will still present, even in a new dynamic. And that's the opportunity to name it, to identify it, to bring it forward out and open and choose a different way.

[Mark] Yeah. That commitment to fierce love, that commitment to like, “I will not be who I was in these previous iterations.” Which, the previous iterations are actually the learnings, the school, the education to actually learn how to show up differently.

[Kylie] Yeah. And they're all so beautiful and wise.

[Mark] And they really are if we let them be.

[Kylie] If we let them be.

[Mark] Yeah. And I know that can cause a lot of reactivity, you know, when we sort of express like, “Hey, every relationship you've been in, every life circumstance you've had is teaching you.” And the response often to that is, “Well, that's victim blaming” or “That's minimizing abuse.”

Like, listen, you can be the victim of very extreme circumstances. But we still have to do something with the material that happened. We can't change our past. That would be great if we could, but we can't. And so, in order to honour the experiences we've been through, the toughest ones especially, we have to integrate the lessons that are available. And there are lessons in those really tough things. And I think it's important that we hold compassion but also this level of accountability and responsibility for just our own side of the street.

[Kylie] Right, and I think there's an energetic around the difference between being a victim of something and still being in the victimized energy of like, helpless. And listen, that's a very real state energetically and also emotionally, somatically that we have to navigate as we come back into our own center, as we begin to access our anger or our boundaries of where we didn't have choice to say no, to say stop, to say enough. Because as early children, when we're experiencing abuse, whether it be emotional, physical, or sexual, we minimize what we need to in order to survive.

And so that's a really tender journey, and I don't want to minimize obviously that journey but it's also such a liberating one to be like, “Okay, yes, that happened, and I want to heal, I want to move through, I want to regain access to my choice, to my anger, so that I can protect the little one inside and move forward and open my heart and a new relational dynamic.

Because that's ultimately what the inner child, but all of us, really want. We want to be seen, we want to be heard, we want to belong, we want to know that we are safe to be all of who we are, and you know, unfortunately, a lot of us didn't receive the early environments that allowed us to stay open, to stay connected to ourselves and then to others and to the planet, to everything, to life.

And so, yeah, how sweet and tender it is to actually return and to resensitize what we've had to desensitize. And there's a lot of work to be done in that arena for many of us. And, you know, if you're listening to this and you're like, “Yeah, hands up, that's me.” I just want to say, thank you. Thank you for doing your work. It's courageous work to say, you know what, I'm going to choose life. I'm going to choose love again.

After being so open as a young tot, to be like, you know what? I'm ready. I'm ready to choose love again. I'm ready to release the armour. I'm ready to step out of these dynamics that are keeping me, yes, protected, but also small, suppressed, lonely, anxious, etc.

[Mark] Yeah, stepping in that integrated embodied self. Adult. In relationship.

For you guys listening or watching: so, here's our new book — if you're listening, I'm holding it up. It's beautiful. Liberated Love: Release Codependent Patterns and Create the Love You Desire. The book is available for pre-order which, if you look at the show notes, you can just click there, or you can go to liberated-love.com.

I wanted to share an excerpt for the first part of the introduction and then chat about it.

“We're trying to keep love alive using old-world relationship skills for new-world relationship demands. Cue the appropriate quote, attributed to Albert Einstein: The definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over and expecting different results.

We're individually and collectively standing at a threshold where we must make a choice.

Stay in our current relationships just the way they are, or mature out of outdated survival patterns, process old emotional debris, and step into a more meaningful, authentic, and life-nourishing path.

For us, Mark and Kylie, two relationship experts who also happen to be very much in love with each other, we now know the possibility that love can offer when we're willing to actively choose our relationships and the lessons that emerge within them with curiosity, grace, and humility.

Love, when entered into by willing adults committed to transforming themselves, can be the ultimate space of healing and growth. From that place, we are no longer existing in relationships that feel like we are imprisoned and have to stay forever to make them work, but rather we are both choosing to be in a relationship that liberates ourselves from previous patterns and habits that prevented us from creating the type of love, life, family and partnership we have always desired. A relationship that centers each other's souls, not fears.

We call it Liberated Love, and we're excited to walk you through how to cultivate it for yourself and with others.”

I'm really proud of this book, I got to tell you. Every time I read it, I get reminded of what we can create together.

[Kylie] Kind of makes me emotional. I mean, it's just such an embodied journey, you know, for us both. Like, the work is on this page, on these pages, the written word, but we walked it. You know, we've walked many through it. And every single time it's like, oh, yeah, this is the work. This is the deep work to peel back those layers, to choose love over and over and over and over, especially when it's hard, especially when we don't want to, especially when we want to hide, especially when we want to retreat into those coping strategies or survival strategies that really feel comfortable and familiar.

You know, it's such an exhale now. It's like, whoo, we made it through that, you know? It's a long journey but we made it on the other side. I remember many times in it, like, “Will this end? Will there be a moment where we're not in the dynamic? We're not in the dance? Like, is there a new way?” And that's what I didn't know in relationship 1.0 that I know now. I had no idea that there was a new way.

Because I didn't know there was a new way, I was like, “Oh well, this is just the way. This is normal, this is familiar, this is how relationships are.” And it's like, no, no, no. They don't have to stay that way. There is another path available to us. So, what a gift it is to find one of those paths. To walk it and then to be able to share it, you know?

[Mark] Yeah. I was speaking about this, the book, yesterday with someone, and I was saying, “This book, in essence, is the book we needed as we navigated our rupture or the ending of relationship 1.0.”

We were in search of trying to figure out how you end old patterns that, I mean, we're talking like, we're relationship nerds. Like we're deep in the science of it, the skill sets. We're like, wow, this relationship must have to end now, because we've tried to do everything we could, and it did need to. And it was actually through that acceptance, that surrender to an actual path that was trying to make its way through us, that we were both so resistant to because we really loved each other, And sometimes we conflate loving someone with holding on to them. Not allowing them to go, not allowing ourselves to go.

And I just learned so much through that that ability to trust a deeper path.

[Kylie] I often think about relationship 1.0 and our initial meeting, and what we were working through felt like there's parts of me that's like, oh there were still young parts running the dynamic and the show. Like younger parts, but through our journey the adult started to get so much stronger. Through relationship 1.0 the inner adult was like, “Okay, we're getting enough internal foundation, enough internal security, internal worth that we can no longer stay hooked in from this place, from this original meeting place, from this original energetic blueprint in which we initially met.”

And that initial energetic blueprint of you being the giver, of you being the caretaker of me and my needs, and me being the taker or the quote-unquote “broken one,” because that was kind of our dynamic. Like, I needed to be fixed, you were my saviour. You gained validation and belonging…

[Mark] You got to hold on to the identity that you couldn't make things work.

[Kylie] That there was something wrong with me…

[Mark] There was this deep level of reverence for Kylie's journey — which you're going to read more about in the book; this is all surface level — of like, a very powerful, deep journey, which is, that recognition that Ky's call to leave the relationship was actually wise, that it wasn't a problem that we needed to “psychotherapize” or whatever, “insert modality/breath work/cold plunge” your way out…

[Kylie] It was the somatic canary in the coal mine, right? And it was like, the body is like, yoooo. Something needs to shift.

[Mark] It was sensing these codependent patterns that were deep, deep, deep. And I would say, because this is the first book to come out on codependency since Melody Beattie's, I mean, very powerful, amazing book, that is really correlated to relationship with addiction, to people with addictions.

And so this is really identifying these very subtle ways that our bodies are telling us. That the healing is in the nervous system: not just changing your skill set, but you have to get to the root. And I was going to say, when you were saying, “The adults kept getting stronger and stronger,” I found, in hindsight, which I think is true of us today, is that we were playing leapfrog a bit in that one would adult a little more and then be like, “Hey little kid in you. That that way of relating is not gonna work here.” And so there was this loving invitation.

And I think that the frictions of your relationship are actually offering you this opportunity to heal things that likely didn't originate in your relationship, although some of them may have. But this opportunity to heal, sometimes generations of things. I always think, what a gift that is. That the relationship offers you this sacred path to do that. That it is brought forward, whether that's to be with the person or not. It's that the pattern is brought forward.

I think when we see that as sacred work, which is not minimizing the impact of whatever said pattern is, but saying like, wow, if we can really orient to it from a sacred place. A lot of people, the givers, and the fixers, treat their partner as sacred. Their partner is the most sacred thing in the world, but they forget about themselves. So if choosing your partner is not simultaneous with choosing yourself, then it's not a choice. If treating your partner as sacred is not at the same moment treating yourself as sacred. So everything has to be sacred.

[Kylie] Yeah, there's like a reprioritization of, first and foremost, our own well-being. You know, our definition of codependency in the book is when you source safety or security or, you know, even the deeper level regulation outside of yourself from someone or something, at the expense of your needs, your well-being and your soul.

Key words being at the expense of. Because everyone's like, “Well, I have needs that I need to get met from other people!” And t's like, no no, I'm not saying that your needs can't be met by other people, that you can't go resource. Of course, we need a village of people around us to support us and to lean on when we need to be leaning on somebody. But again, it's like can we honour our needs and honour somebody else's needs at the same time?

Can we hold on to ourselves and source that internal security, and internal authority without needing to orient around the external world or control the external world for ourselves to feel safe?

And that's such a young imprint. We learn at such a young age that in order to be safe, I need to make sure I de-escalate this situation with Mom, I support Dad so that he doesn't get unhappy… like whatever it is. Or maybe control the sibling so that it doesn't set off a caretaker or something.

That's exhausting over time, right? That initial imprint of having to leave your own center to manage the external environment to source a sense of safety. And while that worked when we were young, it's no longer working right now.m We've reached that threshold where our nervous system is tired. Our soul is tired. And it's like, okay, it's time to source safety in a new way, you know?

[And a lot of that, at least in my experience in working with clients, is coming back to your own center, coming back into your own body, working with your nervous system to increase your capacity to hold frictions, to hold discomfort, relational discomfort, to hold anxiety, to hold activation, so that we can be with all of that without having to leave ourselves, right? 

So it's like, I can hold this so I can stay here and be with you instead of needing to leave myself to be able to stay here.

[Mark] Yeah. And we share a lot of client stories, whose names are changed, obviously, but we share a lot of those in the book of these different experiences, these like subtle ways that these things happen and not so subtle sometimes. And I think one thing that often people believe is that codependency is about one person doing the outsourcing of their safety and having the codependent behaviors. But there's someone in the dance with you who likely is feeling like they can't operate on their own. They're the mess up. They're the problem.

They might have addiction issues, but they can just have this subtle thing of like, I just, I can't get it right. And I need you to keep telling me that I can't get it right.

I need you. These are the very subtle ways.

[Kylie] And this is just shame, right? This is the shame that fuels the dynamic and keeps us both stuck in the codependent cycle, in the codependent dance. And so I think what's beautiful about our definition, but also the work we're doing in this book, is we remove shame from the conversation. Like this is not to be shamed, this is not to beat yourself up with. This was a very loving response that you learned at a very young age in order to cope and survive in your environment. And that's beautiful. And that's wise. And it's time to shift it. 

It's time for intimacy to enter back into our lives in a new way, in an integrated way.

[Kylie] Yeah. So this book is for whether you're single or in a relationship because it's really about how to heal the things that you need to heal, learn your relationship blueprint, the things you learned as kids. And then how do you create a relationship, whether you're in one right now or as you're exploring relationship, that actually fully honors the self.

I think often about how we believe in games in relationship or we talk about power dynamics in relationship when we believe that someone becoming more powerful somehow makes us less powerful. The power itself is a finite resource that needs to be negotiated and exploited or made sure that we're not too powerless or whatever the term is.

But your partner coming fully alive only makes you better. Your partner stepping fully into their dreams just makes everything better for you. You stepping fully into yours is in service of the relationship. And I think we've witnessed, I certainly did this, you know, you like, get out of a relationship, and then you're like, “I'm going to do a whole bunch of things I've always wanted to do.”

And I remember when I first started looking at my relationship patterns oh so long ago and thinking, “That's so dumb. Why don't we just do what we want to do? Like, bring our dreams alive in the relationship?” Because I remember meeting someone who was like, “Oh yeah, I finally went back to school and I went and travelled Europe,” and I was like, “Why wouldn’t you do that stuff with your partner or without?” And I thought: this is such a strange template we've inherited. Where you, oh, wait, you don't find your voice in your relationship. You lose your voice in your relationship. Oh, you don't get to establish needs and wants. You actually eradicate those if you ever had them.

And to me, that was such a mind fuck. But at the same time, I was also thinking, the other way, which is taking up space in relationship and inviting, ideally inviting your partner to take up space, because sometimes someone just takes up all the space. But where there's this mutual honoring of two souls.

[Kylie] Yeah. And, I can just speak from the female experience of that, but there was a lot in the nervous system, like the survival instructions encoded in my DNA, my relational DNA, if you will, was like, stay small, stay quiet, stay subservient, you know, like all the narratives we've heard. But not only that we've heard, we've embodied for our own survival.

[Mark] Yeah, and continue to.

[Kylie] And for many of us continue to. And these are invisible barriers that we don't even realize are there until there is a relational rupture. And it's like, whew. Or maybe, you know, you sign up, read a book, and you're like, oh, wow, there's all that invisible stuff that I didn't know was preventing me from taking up space, from being in my body, from being in joy, from honouring my no.

Like for me, relationship 1.0, like when it ruptured, I had so much rage that I'd never tapped into. And that was thanks to the work I was doing. The somatic therapy work that I was doing. I was frozen. My voice was frozen. My no was frozen. My body was frozen. How can you be in a liberated, loving relationship if your whole being is frozen? Don't have access to anything.

[Mark] And the next level of our relationship actually required you to have access to those things. Because even in the ending of our relationship, you had to access “no.”

[Kylie] Yeah.

[Mark] Because Ky was like, “You leave me.” And I was like, um, no. Like, you need to have this conversation. We need to honour the wisdom that you have. This needs to come from your lips.

[Kylie] Yeah, your being. And it was. It felt like I was breaking an intergenerational pattern by being able to access that “no” and to end something that I was and had been sourcing a lot of security and safety from. And that was choosing myself.

[Mark] Yeah. And that I trust this thing coming through me, this guidance. I can still be loved in choosing this guidance. And so we really embodied, although we, on paper, understood intellectually that love can continue when relationship containers change, by embodying that, I'd say that that really laid the framework, the foundation, for us to enter relationship anyways with someone potentially new and have that as a framework that we'd already done. Like we were now walking that.

[Kylie] Yeah. I didn't die. But seriously, that it was that level of like, “Oh, I ended a relationship. I said, no, I accessed my rage. I took up space. I didn't die.”

[Mark] Yeah. And “I love them. I trust my soul. They trust my soul.” Cause for me, a lot of that was like, I had to trust my path, which was, this is what I want to create. And if you can't do that, I love you. And I also had to trust your path, which was, you couldn't.

[Kylie] Right. And that's still the beautiful gift of, I think this new template is, there's belonging even in rupture. There's belonging even in ending.

[Mark] That's beautifully said. We should put that in the book.

[Kylie] I don't think it's in the book.

[Mark] That specific line is not. But here you are. But the message of that is in there.

You know, it's such a beautiful thing to experience that you coming fully alive actually coincides with you being fully loved by the people around you. And what that does is it expands the capacity of the nervous system, the deeper unconscious to fully love oneself.

[Kylie] Right. It models acceptance. Like, self-acceptance, of course, but also acceptance in the wider. Because we have a biological need to belong. That is for real. Like, we need to belong somewhere. We want to be connected. And so when truth gets in the way of connection or belonging, that's why we've minimized it. 

You know, that's why we've hid it away, stuffed it down, suppressed ourselves for so long. But when there's a new template or a new model where it's like, “Oh, actually, your truth, your intuition, your fullness is welcome here, is celebrated, is loved.” And I have so much gratitude for our community that we cultivated in relationship 1.0 because after that rupture, none of our friends went anywhere.

Like, everybody stayed and loved us through it harder. It was the wildest. Like it makes me emotional because I didn't experience that with previous ruptures. And I know you didn't.

But to have friends be like, “You're not bad. We're here. We love you.” And it's like, whew.

[Mark] Yeah. Like not a single person talking shit. Yeah. And we would have had no tolerance for that anyways, you know, because there was so much love for one another.

[Kylie] Yeah. That was really powerful, obviously.

[Mark] I love you.

[Kylie] I love you too.

[Mark] It was an honour to write this book with you, to prepare. We had a book baby right before we had a baby, which, let us tell you, that is good preparation, because you have two different styles, two different minds, two different souls merging in the same unity as a child. That's why it was actually really great training, the training we didn't know we needed.

[Kylie] Totally.

[Mark] So for you listening or watching, Kylie and I are going to be having more conversations on the podcast about these different subjects and just diving deeper into it, sharing what we've learned, and we'd be honoured for you to get this book in your hands. It's available for pre-order.

Again, you can go to liberated-love.com, and we can't wait for you to get it in your hands and really be part of this movement to create a new template. And I already know you are, you listen to the podcast.

We'd love for your eyes and souls to be able to go deeper on this journey with us.

[Kylie] Yeah, thanks so much for walking the path alongside, with, and looking forward to hearing your thoughts and what lands. And just to jam with the world again on this conversation as we continue to raise the bar of our relationships in every single area of our life, whether that's professional, personal, familial, like it's time to raise the bar, embody the bar and hold the bar together so that we can, so we can reawaken our hearts and come back to what matters most.

[Mark] Amen. Love you all. Make sure you subscribe so you don't miss any future ones of this.